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Self tailing winches

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Christopher Dehart

8/30/2024 9:25 AM

1149 Puffin is helping new sailors learn basic keel boat sailing. It’s now time to add self tailing winches and I would like to use Harken 15s. Will they fit?

Bud Brown

8/30/2024 9:52 AM

The Harken 15 specifications on the Harken website list the fastener circle at 3 15/16", a little less than 4 inches, which I believe (without actually measuring) will fit on the Ensign pedestals.

Thanks for teaching others how to sail on Ensigns!

Christopher Dehart

9/1/2024 3:29 PM

Thank you for the input

all great advice. The self tailing winches will be mostly for demonstration purposes to teach ASA101 winch safety. I prefer the Harken only because it is what the students will use in the advanced classes.

Saint Augustine has strong currents and wind we mostly use the working jib and jam cleats on the cabin top.

I am interested in mid boom sheeting now that you mentioned it.

we currently have the main sheet at the travler.

many suggestions?

Gay De Hart

9/1/2024 5:35 PM

I started a thread about mid boom sheeting a few years back. If you search on it in the forum you should find it.

I did make the switch and have been very glad I did. Oxen blocks were discussed at length but after Bud Browns cautions, I did not go that route.

I think I laid out what I used in the thread, but if it isn't clear, I'm happy to dig into my notes to see what Harken parts I ended up with.

I'm happy with it except putting the sheet into the jam is quite awkward, requiring two hands, but since I rarely want to jam the sheet, I live with the awkwardness. I choose to hold the main sheet, or have some else do it, out of safety, often sailing either solo or in gusty conditions.

Let me know if you want more detail tha. In the thread or if you can't find the thread.

Gay De Hart

Freestyle #383

Sent from my Galaxy

Thank you for the input

Saint Augustine has strong currents and wind we mostly use the working jib and jam cleats on the cabin top.

I am interested in mid boom sheeting now that you mentioned it.

we currently have the main sheet at the travler.

many suggestions?

Zeke Durica

9/1/2024 7:56 PM

The Oxen block will spoil you.

Zeke

Bud Brown

9/3/2024 11:22 AM

Ya know.... Zeke and I agree almost all of the time (thank goodness!)...

The oxen block works great 98+% of the time and there are a lot of people who like them.

Here is why I don't:

It's blowing 15 or greater.

The main sheet is in the hands of the main sheet trimmer, and that person is either totally experienced or they are not.

You are on port tack and here comes a starboard tack boat.

"Are we going to cross?"

"I don't know... it's close... we are slightly ahead, but the angle isn't changing..."

... ... ...

Skipper says, "We need to duck", and bears away, loading up the main before it is released.

Main sheet trimmer tries to uncleat the oxen block by pulling on it, but it is loaded up more than normal because the skipper has already borne away, the main sheet isn't pulled hard enough, and the sheet does not get uncleated.

The opportunity to bear away is closing, and the huge air rudder called the main sail is negating anything the skipper can do with the rudder... but he tries anyway, loading up the main even more and now the rudder is cavitating.

"Release the main!!!"

Main sheet trimmer tries again, and again fails because the main sheet is even more loaded.

"RELEASE THE MAIN!!!"

The main sheet trimmer pulls the sheet to uncleat it with all the bodily might available and the main finally uncleats.... but it's too late to miss the starboard tacker and a terrible collision ensues.

This is not a fabricated or exaggerated story.

I have seen this happen at least three times and the resulting damage to fiberglass and wood is horrendous.

Yep... the oxen block is fantastic 98+% of the time... but I will never even take one for a ride.

ijs

Bud Brown

9/3/2024 11:50 AM

Gail,

If the main sheet is too difficult to cleat, it's usually because the swivel arm is not pointing directly at you, a problem that does not exist with the oxen block (one of its advantages).

I had the same problem with my swivel arm, so I removed it, put it in a vise and bent it down 15 degrees. It points directly at my main sail trimmer now. He doesn't have to stand up anymore to cleat/uncleat and he uses the cleat all the time.

Bending the swivel arm was surprisingly easy. It just takes time and effort to remove it, bend it and put it back on the boom... about three hours.

Once bent, it works great.

Bill Hawk

9/3/2024 11:52 AM

Second!

Plus after a year they begin to slip, meaning that even when cruising you need a dedicated main trimmer.

And don't get me started on single handing with one of those. You wind up clearing, biting, or sitting on the sheet - none ideal.

Bill Hawk
Ensign 1414

Robert Panico

9/3/2024 12:00 PM

So I use the Oxen Block. I have seen it load up in a breeze but so far we have been able to deal with it. It could be a potential problem though.

What are the other alternatives for mid boom sheeting? I do not like the Harken 2156 set up as the main sail trimmer must be pretty much directly in line with the cam. Can't move him forward or then he can't release the cleat.

Bud Brown

9/3/2024 12:12 PM

I guess we can consider this thread a bit hijacked now...

Zeke made a great point about the winches to use, Chris...

Mr. Panico, I am not certain of the model number, but Lorelei has a main sheet base that swivels side to side on a vertical axis, not a horizontal, fore and aft axis.

It is something like this:

https://www.westmarine.com/harken-swivel-base-with-150-cam-matic-cleat-114645.html?&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=%5BADL%5D%5BPLA%5D%20Most%20Categories_%20Control&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAAD_lEeqy7uIuTnpdi9l5TGUDH5RFl&gclid=CjwKCAjw59q2BhBOEiwAKc0ijYTUe0kGRnHLBkVvRotiO3uSgwdGW1Ecq2HRt0utkvAMJ1u3wQwBvBoCkKsQAvD_BwE

Once the arm is bent to point directly at the main sail trimmer, there is no problem cleating and uncleating, and the real plus is one can SEE that it's uncleated.

Zeke Durica

9/3/2024 12:08 PM

Buddy Muscle memory!

I've sailed with very experienced sailors who have never used an Oxen. I take 2 seconds to show them how it works. They usually say wow that's cool. Then it comes time to release it and they start lifting up on it like a cam cleat they're used to and I have to remind them it doesn't release that way. Oh yeah, I forgot. then usually every time they go to release they do the same thing repeatedly. Then I say get someone else on the main.

You can release the oxen from anywhere on the boat (on the cabin top), not with a cam you have to be in a certain location and flailing elbows trying to release the cam style when people are moving around gets an elbow in the mouth.

Sometimes you can't teach an old dog new tricks. Just a personal choice.

As far as crossing when it's close you pull one click and wait and it's ready to run free.

Zeke

Bud Brown

9/3/2024 12:18 PM

Lol...

The problem with the oxen is eliminated when the main sail trimmer is aware of the potentially horrendous situation, and the main sail gets released before the skipper bears away in those conditions.

I know you like the oxen, Z... and you are a great sailor.

It's not you I worry about...

Zeke Durica

9/3/2024 2:41 PM

Well, there is always that one. Not much you can do about that one.

LOL

Eric Jones

9/3/2024 3:31 PM

I recommend the oxen block with becket. It provides more line to block engagement than the becketless one.

Eric

Sent from my iPhone

Zeke Durica

8/30/2024 12:26 PM

When were had a request for self-tailers we discouraged them. 3 reasons. When you sheet in even under windy conditions you can pull the genny into about 3 ft or less of the sheet. A couple of good clicks and you're in self-tailers are for boats that have a lot of force and a lot of sheet length to get in, 2nd expense, 3rd when you're cranking when the sail starts getting close to the winch the handle gets hard to make a complete 360 with the handle.

The better choice is 2 speed.

Zeke

Bud Brown

8/30/2024 5:53 PM

Ya gotta love it when Zeke chimes in...

...except for that damn oxen block. Those things have caused a lot of Ensign damage...

Robert Panico

8/30/2024 6:13 PM

Oh the Oxen Block! Had one fail during the Nationals. We did have a spare but I am open to looking at alternative options.

Eric Jones

8/30/2024 10:43 PM

I love my oxen block.

Sent from my iPhone

Bud Brown

8/31/2024 1:01 AM

Yeah, they're great until they're not...

Worst Ensign collisions I've ever seen were caused by oxen blocks.

Zeke Durica

8/31/2024 6:43 AM

The oxen block requires a little maintenance just like every piece of equipment on the boat. My first one lasted 18 years then I had it overhauled a for 45 bucks and it’s been working fine since. Some people have trouble with them. I think it’s a muscle memory issue.

Zeke

Robert Panico

8/31/2024 8:05 AM

What maintenance should be performed? Who overhauled it?

Zeke Durica

8/31/2024 10:15 AM

Rinse out with fresh water occasionally and lubricate with a Teflon lube sporadically. Most importantly, keep an eye on the line you are using and if it swells up over time, replace it. Never use more than the 5/16 line.

Pretty simple.

Zeke

Robert Panico

8/31/2024 11:01 AM

Thanks

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